My copy of the book has some discussion questions in the back. Thought I'd post them here just for kicks and giggles (also, it's very slow at work this week.)
1. How would you describe the relationship between Empress Orchid and Yung Lu? How does it alter Orchid's decision making and the course of the events in the novel?
2. Orchid says of Nuharoo "what struck me was how she achieved power by appearing to want nothing to do with it" (37). How do these two former wives of the emperor differ in their approach to power?
3. Do you believe Orchid was sincere in her desire to retire, allowing her son to rule? Did she seize power whenever possible or was she forced to bear unwanted responsibility?
4. Orchid tells her brother "The courage to keep dreams alive despite all is what matters" (85). How does this conviction influence the way Orchid lives her life?
5. Empress Orchid is continually forced to make hard decisions on behalf of her son and stepson. Who bears responsibility for the lack of leadership displayed by Emperors Tung Chih and Guang-hsu? Is Empress Orchid a good mother to her sons?
6. How did political alliances affect the lives of those in the royal court?
7. Emperor Ghang-hsu struggles to reform the government at all costs. Was his motivation selfish or was it for the good of the country? What were his biggest obstacles?
8. In your opinion, what was China's biggest challenge in confronting the West? Were the western powers fair in their dealings with China? Were China's responses warranted?
9. Empress Orchid was the de facto leader of a deeply traditional culture. What were some of the challenges she faced in trying to maintain that culture while keeping the modern world at bay?
10. Were you familiar with Empress Orchid before reading this novel? if so, did the novel change your impressions or understanding of the woman vilified as the "Dragon Lady?"
11. Why do you think Anchee Min chose to write about Orchid's life as an imagined story rather than as a nonfiction account? In what ways can the writer "fill in the gaps" in the historical record? What draws you to historical fiction?
12. Is Empress Orchid a tragic figure? How so or how not? Could she also be seen as heroic?
Did any of you read The Pillow Book? I realize it’s from 11th century Japan, but it’s an interesting glimpse of court life, and I find myself peppering Orchid’s life with scenes from it.
Also, I can’t believe I’m doing this, but I’m actually going to quote Shirley in response to The Last Empress. "In all this, Miss Keeldar partly yielded to her disposition; but a remark she made a year afterwards proved that she partly also acted on system. 'Louis,' she said, 'would never have learned to rule, if she had not ceased to govern: the incapacity of the sovereign had developed the powers of the premier.'"
I’m still on the fence as to whether Orchid is power hungry or not. It seems like there are a lot of times where things would have been OK if she had just ‘ceased to govern’ and let the emperors and the court ‘learn to rule.’ On the other hand, the country also needed someone with experience to help it along through all the wars, and a teenage emperor probably isn’t the best bet. I question, however, the effectiveness of a ruler who only interacts with the court. Not being allowed outside of the city walls, it would be SO easy to manipulate the information coming in, as shown in Ch 25: “On September 17, 1894, … the Japanese destroyed half of our navy in a single afternoon, and not a single ship of theirs was seriously damaged. … Thanks to the dead Prince Ch’un, who had been fabricating field reports and then supplying only the good news to me, I had foolishly felt secure enough to being preparing my sixtieth birthday party.”
Some other notable quotes (not many) Ch 11 “Tung Chih caught a cold that didn’t go away for months. He had developed a fever, and by autumn his body was very weak. ‘Tung Chih needs to go outdoors and exercise,’ Prince Kung urged.” This is always what Harold’s parents say – you just need to get some fresh air. Mine always suggest gargling salt water. Haha.
“Their revelation shocked me: Tung Chih had never quit going to the brothels. ‘His Majesty prefers flowers in the wild,’ Foo-cha complained.”
Ch 16 “Nuharoo insisted that the palace gardens should not look like a natural forest with piled-up dead leaves. Afraid that she might be hit by dropping nuts, she always walked beneath her umbrella. I loved my morning walks and loved kicking the fallen leaves. The sounds of nuts popping off the trees reminded me of my childhood days in the countryside. It made my spirit come out of its dark shadow."
“Walking along the garden paths had never meant so much to me. I could watch a worm damaged plant swinging in the wind and marvel at its way of surviving."
Then later in Ch 19 “ ‘You can order the eunuchs to get rid of their brooms now.’ ‘What are you talking about?’ ‘You can collect the fall leaves, pile them as high as you want in the courtyards. The hell with stains on the marble.’ "
“ ‘We haven’t been the best partners, but I cannot imagine having no partner at all. I am used to you. You are the most wretched fucking demon I know!’ A faint smile crossed Nuharoo’s face and she murmured, ‘I hate you, Yehonala.’ "
I went onto Amazon to read the synopsis of this book and am now SO interested in this book. It is about Empress Cixi. We lived in China for awhile and I learned about her, so this will be interesting to read the "fictional" account.
I've made it to Ch. 5 and am just not feeling this book either. I find the writing to be choppy with rough transitions between events and clunky narratives. However, the plot is interesting and I always historical fiction.
A, I have Pillow Book on my to-read list because you recommended it, but haven't gotten there yet. Do you think it is better than this book, worse, or about the same?
I have many the same questions as A. How good of an emperor can a young man be when he has never left his palace or interacted with the people (not the courtiers, but the average people) of his country? Was Orchid really power hungry or was she only doing her duty in running the country for a son who seemed often disinterested at best?
Some quotes/passages to mention:
Ch 2: The name "Head-Chopper Tseng" just tickled my fancy. Also, how elaborate the ceremonies for every occasion were. Just to have tea with an old-friend, there are cermonies, servants in the room, specific distances between the two people, etc. What a pain in the butt it must have been.
Ch. 3: All the various ways that the Orchid and Nuharoo were put down by the princes and other courtiers because they were women. For example, "Su Shun insisting that Nuharoo and I need not trouble ourselves with the owrk of the court, which would be better left to men." In some ways, I felt like she should just let the men run the country into the ground rather than put up with it. On the other hand, I think I would respond much as she did and make them listen to me even though I was female.
Ch. 4: It seems sad that Orchid is never allowed to remarry or share company with a man after the Emperor's death. It really adds a bittersweet element to her relationship with Yung Lu, doesn't it? And then, the real kicker, for me, "Prince Kung officially proposed to have the court limit my power. 'Crossing the male-female line' was teh name of my crime." Seriously!?!
I confess, since we've been a bit slow on this book I've read a couple of others in the meantime, and I'm not really looking forward to going back to Orchid (sorry Tracy). However, I have another business trip (yay, reading on the plane!) this week and anticipate finishing over the weekend.
M, The Pillow Book is so different that it is hard to compare them. It is just a lady-in-waiting's diary that somehow got published. It offers glimpses at very similar court scenes, but never tries to be a novel; thus, there is no plot, recurring characters (except the main people in her life) nor any true rhyme or reason to the events portrayed (but a delightful read just the same). Both books have chunks that are easily skimmed over. I think The Pillow Book gives more and better examples of how formal life was at court, and more detail into the male/female interactions. Poetry plays a large role, and I very much enjoyed the concept that women were supposed to know nearly all Japenese poetry, but not any Chinese poetry. At the same time, very witty women proved their intellect by working obscure references to Chinese poems into their correspondence. What a fine line to walk!
I'm not sure who has my copy right now.. maybe my mom or Joy?
As predicted the flights this week gave me ample time to finish up this book. Sorry Tracy, but I didn't like it very much. I thought the story was interesting, but the writing style was tedious. There were so many events to cover that it read more like an encyclopedia entry than a novel.
Here are some bits that stood out for me: Ch 26 "Lustrous had little interest in much of anything. She loved food and could sit around daintily nibbling all day." Couldn't we all? =)
Ch 27 "Since our war with Japan, I had never received a single report of a military loss. The only news the court sent was of victory, for which I foolishly awarded promotions and bonuses."
Ch 39 "Working with the Japanese, Sun Yat-sen plotted assassination and destruction, especially of the government's financial establishments." There is an entire novel contained within this one sentence, don't you think? Or another James Bond movie at least.
In the book I think Orchid was portrayed as the "meddling mother" who could never just leave anything alone. It seemed she only backed out of things she knew were doomed to fail. The book gives the impression that things would not have gone any better for China if she had completely retired and stayed there the first time she tried to do so.
Another thing I had trouble grasping was the way she was afraid of speaking her mind (When she finally meets Robert Hart, for example). You're the Empress for Pete's sake. Ask the questions you want to of the people you want to! Otherwise, what's the point of all that power?
The 100 Day Reform reminded me of how harshly we judge our presidents' first 100 days in office. In the grand scheme of things it is such a short time, not nearly enough to propose, approve and IMPLEMENT any sweeping policy changes.
The last thing I wanted to comment on was Yung Lu and Orchid. I really did feel badly for her in this respect. Imagine being widowed so young, and then never being touched again (although certainly she had a sexual relationship with An-te-hai, as eluded to in Ch 6). I must say I did get a little choked up when he (Yung Lu) died.
Well, I awoke on Christmas morning at 7:00 and finished this book while waiting for Eli and Randy to get up (finally at 9:00). Long gone are those days when Eli woke up at 5 a.m. Having not read the Pillow Book (and I have it by the way), this book reminded me of “2 Years in the Forbidden City” and I guess it should have since it is told by one of the Empress Dowager’s ladies in waiting. I think the Empress Dowager had to do what she had to do. After raising her sons to become emperors, how could you stand by and watch them ruin the country for which you’ve prepared them? She had a greater love for country than for her sons. I don’t have any specific quotes just some thoughts/observations/whatever: 1) The whole problem with the paparazzi and journalists and spin, is the truth what is printed? Information is power. Still China controls the information that is presented to the public and controls internet access. I have to wonder how long can that last? And you have to wonder how information in the US is controlled as well. I read a book a long time ago (and I can’t remember the title) but the gist of it was there were 4 people who ran the entire world and would orchestrate wars and economic down and upturns to control and decide who the “ruling nations” would be. The concept was scary and has always stuck with me, but I cannot remember the TITLE! 2) The motive of Anchee Min in writing the book, I think her allegiance is with the Empress Dowager and trying to clear her name? Who knows what the truth really is? I have a book of Chinese history and looked up the account of Cixi and it is as described from the US/British point of view, so what’s the real story? 3) All the rules and procedures, especially noted when Cixi meets Robert Hart and follows the royal formula and asks him about his journey and THEN asks him to move 3 feet closer to show him honor. She couldn’t just speak her mind since there were other people there and she was speaking to a FOREIGNER! Also, Cixi’s photographs (pages 295-296) and the symbolism/legacy she leaves behind with them. I can so understand why relations with China were/are difficult since westerners must have been so “uncultured” to the Chinese who had such long standing traditions. 4) Education – Cixi noted that the British were taught a practical education and the Chinese “classical”. 5) Modernization of China – telegraphs, railroads and FLUSHING CERAMIC bowls! Will wonders ever cease? 6) POLITICS – POLITICS – POLITICS! 7) Cleaning out the privy was a privilege to get good crop fertilizer 8) “Exchanging children” so you wouldn’t have to eat your own – eeewwwwww! 9) Page 166 – “Should we not think about walking with both legs?” referring to adopting 2 strategies. I LOVE THIS PHRASE! Plan on using it on Randy – watch out! 10) Corruption in government – lots! While we were in China, a friend I met there (Jingda) told me how her father “bought” her sister’s entrance into college with a load of coal. Her sister never completed high school and never graduated from high school but got admitted into college (with the coal) and now has a college degree and is a professor! To me, this was amazing!
One more thing for the list 11) Religion - Those damn Christians trying to move in on the country without UNDERSTANDING the culture and building those tall steeples that look like swords! Damn them!
I have to say I really struggled with Joy's first point about the press and spin myself. While I was reading the book I read some articles about Cixi and the whole time I was wondering how much of them was true, and how much speculation. How much first hand writing could be done about her? Contact with the royals was so limited, I think it would be very difficult to get a clear view of how things "went down" especially with the relationships between the co-regents and the emperors.
I think Min was trying to clear Orchid's name a bit. Leaders are always judged so harshly initially; often we need the buffer of time to see clear causes, effects and outcomes of complex situations.
I wasn't as surprised about the corrupt government/ministers - every country is similar in this regard. In fact, our yearly values and ethics training is very, very clear about bribes. You can't bribe someone to do something outside of their authority/normal job description, but you CAN bribe them to do their job faster, like an expediting fee.
One thing I forgot to mention before - the lice. Can you imagine having to sit through audiences all day without scratching?! Oh my.
Do you think residents of current monarchies would have a different view of this book? I wonder how much our democratic backgrounds influence our thinking (I for one, don't feel very sympathetic to many of the characters in this book).
I finally finished The Last Empress today. I thought that the story line was interesting. But, the writing style was tedious. I found myself re-reading several paragraphs because I had lost interest in what I was reading.
I did look up Guang-zhu and Tzu Hsi on wikipedia. There are some good pictures of them and Guang-zhu's wives at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Dowager_Cixi You will have to follow other links throughout the page to see them all. I also read some account of their history. Throughout The Last Empress,Orchid is seen as trying to do everything in her power to help China become successful while also trying to get her son to do her will for her. I have to wonder what Orchid's true motives were. It seems that she only took over power when she didn't like the way things were being run. Her sons both had dramatic personality flaws. But were they incapable of running the country? I guess only those who knew these people intimately would know what really happened. It would seem that history is in the eyes of the beholder. We really don't know the true story unless we live through it. The accounts on wikipedia also suggest that Guang-hsu was poisoned. There was no way to prove it. But there were higher than normal amounts of arsenic found in his remains. It is curious that they both died one day apart. It was even suggested that Orchid had a part in his death. Although that seems far fetched to me as she was on her own death bed. Overall, I thought the book had an interesting account of history. But, really needed some heavy editing to make it an interesting read.
Yeah! I've finished. Again, not one of my favorite books. As I've already mentioned, the writing was just too choppy and disjointed and the plot seemed to go unevenly. Finally, it was so depressing the last half that I found myself dreading the next disaster. It almost felt like one of Angie's books in that respect. :-)
As to the discussion questions and points you've brought up...
DQ#3: As has already been mentioned, this seemed rather apologist about Orchid's reign, as though Min was attempting to rationalize the decisions that history credits to Orchid. Was she really a power hungry despot or did she sincerely do the best she could to help her sons and China? I tend to believe the latter, not so much because Min's narrative was so convincing but because history has typically been harsh toward women in power, especially women who rise to power through sexuality and who rule on behalf of children. I can't imagine a woman holding so much power during that time period in China that she could accomplish everything evil that she has been credited with, however I can picture a woman trying to rule and being thwarted and villified by the ruling classes (of men, of course) and thus historians. Call me a feminist... :-)
DQ#5: I don't think that Orchid was responsible for the downfall and poor decisions of Tung Chih because she had so little to do with his upbringing. I am less sure about her responsibility for Guang-hsu. She definitely wanted to do right by him and participated more in his early life, but did she contribute to his self-confidence issues? I think she did. But then, it seems that most of the care was done by court eunuchs who were terrible to the poor boys. For example, in Ch. 17 making Guang-hsu wet himself and then ridiculing him for it? No wonder he had a disfunctional bladder and erectile disorder as an adult.
DQ#6: Political alliances, holy crap! I lost track of who was on whose side with all the manipulations and shifting loyalties. What political leader isn't injured through political machinations? However, these seemed particularly vile. A product of the time, culture, or Min's imagination, do you think?
DQ#7: I think Guang-su was being selfish in the reforms. It seemed like his attempt to leave a legacy since he couldn't leave an heir. Real attempts at reform should have been better formulated and enforced. On the other hand, as Angie points out, maybe I am being to harsh? Afterall, it was only 100 days and that really isn't enough time to judge reforms.
DQ#8: I think China's biggest challenge with the west is the press, much like today (as Joy also mentions). Orchid and the Chinese in general, seemed to really be eviscerated by the foreign press and thus was dealt with very unfairly by other countries. I think this still happens today. One country/ruler is picked out as evil (maybe aptly so) and then all the media jumps on that bandwagon and tries to outdo others in stories about that country/ruler. It makes you rethink how much of the news to believe and what to take with a grain of salt, doesn't it?
DQ#s 11 & 12: I usually really enjoy historical fiction because I like imagining what it was like in the personal life of historical figures. Part of the reason I was disappointed in this book is because I couldn't feel connected to Orchid. Some parts were very personal and I would start to feel a connection and then it would become historical and inpersonal and the connection would be broken. However, I had never heard of the Dragon Empress before and found learning about her to be very interesting.
To finish, since the website wouldn't let me post a super-long comment:
Angie already pulled out some of my favorite quotes, including the leaves and acorns in the courtyard and the "fucking demon" comments and Joy picked out several of the topics (privies and eating children). However, as usual, there are a few other quotes and exerpts I want to highlight:
Ch. 30: I have to commiserate with the poor public servants asked to write an eight-legged essay, as I struggle with my eight-legged dissertation.
Ch. 38 and other chapters: I find it fascinating that even though Orchid was the Empress, she still needed the courts approval to meet with people and couldn't meet with males from other countries. Even the all-female party took some time to win approval. As both Joy and Angie mention, what is the point of being Empress if you can't speak your mind and see who you want to see? Bummer.
I actually had several other pages marked but now don't know why I marked them, so I'll conclude this eight-legged essay on "The Last Empress".
Oh, and thanks for the wikipedia links, Tracy. I enjoyed looking at some pictures of her, since my book did not have any photos.
Me too! The close ups were great. I remember her having to cut her nails in the book, so seeing them (with protectors) somewhat satisfied my curiosity. I just wonder how she performed some of her daily bathroom "functions" with them.. Or do you think she had servants for that?
21 comments:
My copy of the book has some discussion questions in the back. Thought I'd post them here just for kicks and giggles (also, it's very slow at work this week.)
1. How would you describe the relationship between Empress Orchid and Yung Lu? How does it alter Orchid's decision making and the course of the events in the novel?
2. Orchid says of Nuharoo "what struck me was how she achieved power by appearing to want nothing to do with it" (37). How do these two former wives of the emperor differ in their approach to power?
3. Do you believe Orchid was sincere in her desire to retire, allowing her son to rule? Did she seize power whenever possible or was she forced to bear unwanted responsibility?
4. Orchid tells her brother "The courage to keep dreams alive despite all is what matters" (85). How does this conviction influence the way Orchid lives her life?
5. Empress Orchid is continually forced to make hard decisions on behalf of her son and stepson. Who bears responsibility for the lack of leadership displayed by Emperors Tung Chih and Guang-hsu? Is Empress Orchid a good mother to her sons?
6. How did political alliances affect the lives of those in the royal court?
7. Emperor Ghang-hsu struggles to reform the government at all costs. Was his motivation selfish or was it for the good of the country? What were his biggest obstacles?
8. In your opinion, what was China's biggest challenge in confronting the West? Were the western powers fair in their dealings with China? Were China's responses warranted?
9. Empress Orchid was the de facto leader of a deeply traditional culture. What were some of the challenges she faced in trying to maintain that culture while keeping the modern world at bay?
10. Were you familiar with Empress Orchid before reading this novel? if so, did the novel change your impressions or understanding of the woman vilified as the "Dragon Lady?"
11. Why do you think Anchee Min chose to write about Orchid's life as an imagined story rather than as a nonfiction account? In what ways can the writer "fill in the gaps" in the historical record? What draws you to historical fiction?
12. Is Empress Orchid a tragic figure? How so or how not? Could she also be seen as heroic?
Did any of you read The Pillow Book? I realize it’s from 11th century Japan, but it’s an interesting glimpse of court life, and I find myself peppering Orchid’s life with scenes from it.
Also, I can’t believe I’m doing this, but I’m actually going to quote Shirley in response to The Last Empress.
"In all this, Miss Keeldar partly yielded to her disposition; but a remark she made a year afterwards proved that she partly also acted on system. 'Louis,' she said, 'would never have learned to rule, if she had not ceased to govern: the incapacity of the sovereign had developed the powers of the premier.'"
I’m still on the fence as to whether Orchid is power hungry or not. It seems like there are a lot of times where things would have been OK if she had just ‘ceased to govern’ and let the emperors and the court ‘learn to rule.’ On the other hand, the country also needed someone with experience to help it along through all the wars, and a teenage emperor probably isn’t the best bet. I question, however, the effectiveness of a ruler who only interacts with the court. Not being allowed outside of the city walls, it would be SO easy to manipulate the information coming in, as shown in Ch 25:
“On September 17, 1894, … the Japanese destroyed half of our navy in a single afternoon, and not a single ship of theirs was seriously damaged. … Thanks to the dead Prince Ch’un, who had been fabricating field reports and then supplying only the good news to me, I had foolishly felt secure enough to being preparing my sixtieth birthday party.”
Some other notable quotes (not many)
Ch 11 “Tung Chih caught a cold that didn’t go away for months. He had developed a fever, and by autumn his body was very weak.
‘Tung Chih needs to go outdoors and exercise,’ Prince Kung urged.”
This is always what Harold’s parents say – you just need to get some fresh air. Mine always suggest gargling salt water. Haha.
“Their revelation shocked me: Tung Chih had never quit going to the brothels. ‘His Majesty prefers flowers in the wild,’ Foo-cha complained.”
Ch 16 “Nuharoo insisted that the palace gardens should not look like a natural forest with piled-up dead leaves. Afraid that she might be hit by dropping nuts, she always walked beneath her umbrella.
I loved my morning walks and loved kicking the fallen leaves. The sounds of nuts popping off the trees reminded me of my childhood days in the countryside. It made my spirit come out of its dark shadow."
“Walking along the garden paths had never meant so much to me. I could watch a worm damaged plant swinging in the wind and marvel at its way of surviving."
Then later in Ch 19 “ ‘You can order the eunuchs to get rid of their brooms now.’
‘What are you talking about?’
‘You can collect the fall leaves, pile them as high as you want in the courtyards. The hell with stains on the marble.’ "
“ ‘We haven’t been the best partners, but I cannot imagine having no partner at all. I am used to you. You are the most wretched fucking demon I know!’
A faint smile crossed Nuharoo’s face and she murmured, ‘I hate you, Yehonala.’ "
I went onto Amazon to read the synopsis of this book and am now SO interested in this book. It is about Empress Cixi. We lived in China for awhile and I learned about her, so this will be interesting to read the "fictional" account.
I've made it to Ch. 5 and am just not feeling this book either. I find the writing to be choppy with rough transitions between events and clunky narratives. However, the plot is interesting and I always historical fiction.
A, I have Pillow Book on my to-read list because you recommended it, but haven't gotten there yet. Do you think it is better than this book, worse, or about the same?
I have many the same questions as A. How good of an emperor can a young man be when he has never left his palace or interacted with the people (not the courtiers, but the average people) of his country? Was Orchid really power hungry or was she only doing her duty in running the country for a son who seemed often disinterested at best?
Some quotes/passages to mention:
Ch 2: The name "Head-Chopper Tseng" just tickled my fancy.
Also, how elaborate the ceremonies for every occasion were. Just to have tea with an old-friend, there are cermonies, servants in the room, specific distances between the two people, etc. What a pain in the butt it must have been.
Ch. 3: All the various ways that the Orchid and Nuharoo were put down by the princes and other courtiers because they were women. For example, "Su Shun insisting that Nuharoo and I need not trouble ourselves with the owrk of the court, which would be better left to men." In some ways, I felt like she should just let the men run the country into the ground rather than put up with it. On the other hand, I think I would respond much as she did and make them listen to me even though I was female.
Ch. 4: It seems sad that Orchid is never allowed to remarry or share company with a man after the Emperor's death. It really adds a bittersweet element to her relationship with Yung Lu, doesn't it?
And then, the real kicker, for me, "Prince Kung officially proposed to have the court limit my power. 'Crossing the male-female line' was teh name of my crime." Seriously!?!
I confess, since we've been a bit slow on this book I've read a couple of others in the meantime, and I'm not really looking forward to going back to Orchid (sorry Tracy). However, I have another business trip (yay, reading on the plane!) this week and anticipate finishing over the weekend.
M, The Pillow Book is so different that it is hard to compare them. It is just a lady-in-waiting's diary that somehow got published. It offers glimpses at very similar court scenes, but never tries to be a novel; thus, there is no plot, recurring characters (except the main people in her life) nor any true rhyme or reason to the events portrayed (but a delightful read just the same). Both books have chunks that are easily skimmed over. I think The Pillow Book gives more and better examples of how formal life was at court, and more detail into the male/female interactions. Poetry plays a large role, and I very much enjoyed the concept that women were supposed to know nearly all Japenese poetry, but not any Chinese poetry. At the same time, very witty women proved their intellect by working obscure references to Chinese poems into their correspondence. What a fine line to walk!
I'm not sure who has my copy right now.. maybe my mom or Joy?
As predicted the flights this week gave me ample time to finish up this book. Sorry Tracy, but I didn't like it very much. I thought the story was interesting, but the writing style was tedious. There were so many events to cover that it read more like an encyclopedia entry than a novel.
Here are some bits that stood out for me:
Ch 26 "Lustrous had little interest in much of anything. She loved food and could sit around daintily nibbling all day."
Couldn't we all? =)
Ch 27 "Since our war with Japan, I had never received a single report of a military loss. The only news the court sent was of victory, for which I foolishly awarded promotions and bonuses."
Ch 39 "Working with the Japanese, Sun Yat-sen plotted assassination and destruction, especially of the government's financial establishments."
There is an entire novel contained within this one sentence, don't you think? Or another James Bond movie at least.
In the book I think Orchid was portrayed as the "meddling mother" who could never just leave anything alone. It seemed she only backed out of things she knew were doomed to fail. The book gives the impression that things would not have gone any better for China if she had completely retired and stayed there the first time she tried to do so.
Another thing I had trouble grasping was the way she was afraid of speaking her mind (When she finally meets Robert Hart, for example). You're the Empress for Pete's sake. Ask the questions you want to of the people you want to! Otherwise, what's the point of all that power?
The 100 Day Reform reminded me of how harshly we judge our presidents' first 100 days in office. In the grand scheme of things it is such a short time, not nearly enough to propose, approve and IMPLEMENT any sweeping policy changes.
The last thing I wanted to comment on was Yung Lu and Orchid. I really did feel badly for her in this respect. Imagine being widowed so young, and then never being touched again (although certainly she had a sexual relationship with An-te-hai, as eluded to in Ch 6). I must say I did get a little choked up when he (Yung Lu) died.
Both Cholera and Moby Dick were answers in Double Jeopardy this past week.
Those clue writers really need to get another set of "classics" and leave Moby Dick behind.
I can't believe it, but Moby Dick / Captain Ahab was featured in Monday's Jeopardy program too!! Seriously they need to get over it!
Well, I awoke on Christmas morning at 7:00 and finished this book while waiting for Eli and Randy to get up (finally at 9:00). Long gone are those days when Eli woke up at 5 a.m.
Having not read the Pillow Book (and I have it by the way), this book reminded me of “2 Years in the Forbidden City” and I guess it should have since it is told by one of the Empress Dowager’s ladies in waiting.
I think the Empress Dowager had to do what she had to do. After raising her sons to become emperors, how could you stand by and watch them ruin the country for which you’ve prepared them? She had a greater love for country than for her sons.
I don’t have any specific quotes just some thoughts/observations/whatever:
1) The whole problem with the paparazzi and journalists and spin, is the truth what is printed?
Information is power. Still China controls the information that is presented to the public and controls internet access. I have to wonder how long can that last? And you have to wonder how information in the US is controlled as well. I read a book a long time ago (and I can’t remember the title) but the gist of it was there were 4 people who ran the entire world and would orchestrate wars and economic down and upturns to control and decide who the “ruling nations” would be. The concept was scary and has always stuck with me, but I cannot remember the TITLE!
2) The motive of Anchee Min in writing the book, I think her allegiance is with the Empress Dowager and trying to clear her name? Who knows what the truth really is? I have a book of Chinese history and looked up the account of Cixi and it is as described from the US/British point of view, so what’s the real story?
3) All the rules and procedures, especially noted when Cixi meets Robert Hart and follows the royal formula and asks him about his journey and THEN asks him to move 3 feet closer to show him honor. She couldn’t just speak her mind since there were other people there and she was speaking to a FOREIGNER! Also, Cixi’s photographs (pages 295-296) and the symbolism/legacy she leaves behind with them. I can so understand why relations with China were/are difficult since westerners must have been so “uncultured” to the Chinese who had such long standing traditions.
4) Education – Cixi noted that the British were taught a practical education and the Chinese “classical”.
5) Modernization of China – telegraphs, railroads and FLUSHING CERAMIC bowls! Will wonders ever cease?
6) POLITICS – POLITICS – POLITICS!
7) Cleaning out the privy was a privilege to get good crop fertilizer
8) “Exchanging children” so you wouldn’t have to eat your own – eeewwwwww!
9) Page 166 – “Should we not think about walking with both legs?” referring to adopting 2 strategies.
I LOVE THIS PHRASE! Plan on using it on Randy – watch out!
10) Corruption in government – lots! While we were in China, a friend I met there (Jingda) told me how her father “bought” her sister’s entrance into college with a load of coal. Her sister never completed high school and never graduated from high school but got admitted into college (with the coal) and now has a college degree and is a professor! To me, this was amazing!
One more thing for the list
11) Religion - Those damn Christians trying to move in on the country without UNDERSTANDING the culture and building those tall steeples that look like swords! Damn them!
I have to say I really struggled with Joy's first point about the press and spin myself. While I was reading the book I read some articles about Cixi and the whole time I was wondering how much of them was true, and how much speculation. How much first hand writing could be done about her? Contact with the royals was so limited, I think it would be very difficult to get a clear view of how things "went down" especially with the relationships between the co-regents and the emperors.
I think Min was trying to clear Orchid's name a bit. Leaders are always judged so harshly initially; often we need the buffer of time to see clear causes, effects and outcomes of complex situations.
I wasn't as surprised about the corrupt government/ministers - every country is similar in this regard. In fact, our yearly values and ethics training is very, very clear about bribes. You can't bribe someone to do something outside of their authority/normal job description, but you CAN bribe them to do their job faster, like an expediting fee.
One thing I forgot to mention before - the lice. Can you imagine having to sit through audiences all day without scratching?! Oh my.
Do you think residents of current monarchies would have a different view of this book? I wonder how much our democratic backgrounds influence our thinking (I for one, don't feel very sympathetic to many of the characters in this book).
I finally finished The Last Empress today. I thought that the story line was interesting. But, the writing style was tedious. I found myself re-reading several paragraphs because I had lost interest in what I was reading.
I did look up Guang-zhu and Tzu Hsi on wikipedia. There are some good pictures of them and Guang-zhu's wives at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Dowager_Cixi
You will have to follow other links throughout the page to see them all.
I also read some account of their history. Throughout The Last Empress,Orchid is seen as trying to do everything in her power to help China become successful while also trying to get her son to do her will for her. I have to wonder what Orchid's true motives were. It seems that she only took over power when she didn't like the way things were being run. Her sons both had dramatic personality flaws. But were they incapable of running the country? I guess only those who knew these people intimately would know what really happened. It would seem that history is in the eyes of the beholder. We really don't know the true story unless we live through it.
The accounts on wikipedia also suggest that Guang-hsu was poisoned. There was no way to prove it. But there were higher than normal amounts of arsenic found in his remains. It is curious that they both died one day apart. It was even suggested that Orchid had a part in his death. Although that seems far fetched to me as she was on her own death bed. Overall, I thought the book had an interesting account of history. But, really needed some heavy editing to make it an interesting read.
Yeah! I've finished. Again, not one of my favorite books. As I've already mentioned, the writing was just too choppy and disjointed and the plot seemed to go unevenly. Finally, it was so depressing the last half that I found myself dreading the next disaster. It almost felt like one of Angie's books in that respect. :-)
As to the discussion questions and points you've brought up...
DQ#3: As has already been mentioned, this seemed rather apologist about Orchid's reign, as though Min was attempting to rationalize the decisions that history credits to Orchid. Was she really a power hungry despot or did she sincerely do the best she could to help her sons and China? I tend to believe the latter, not so much because Min's narrative was so convincing but because history has typically been harsh toward women in power, especially women who rise to power through sexuality and who rule on behalf of children. I can't imagine a woman holding so much power during that time period in China that she could accomplish everything evil that she has been credited with, however I can picture a woman trying to rule and being thwarted and villified by the ruling classes (of men, of course) and thus historians. Call me a feminist... :-)
DQ#5: I don't think that Orchid was responsible for the downfall and poor decisions of Tung Chih because she had so little to do with his upbringing. I am less sure about her responsibility for Guang-hsu. She definitely wanted to do right by him and participated more in his early life, but did she contribute to his self-confidence issues? I think she did. But then, it seems that most of the care was done by court eunuchs who were terrible to the poor boys. For example, in Ch. 17 making Guang-hsu wet himself and then ridiculing him for it? No wonder he had a disfunctional bladder and erectile disorder as an adult.
DQ#6: Political alliances, holy crap! I lost track of who was on whose side with all the manipulations and shifting loyalties. What political leader isn't injured through political machinations? However, these seemed particularly vile. A product of the time, culture, or Min's imagination, do you think?
DQ#7: I think Guang-su was being selfish in the reforms. It seemed like his attempt to leave a legacy since he couldn't leave an heir. Real attempts at reform should have been better formulated and enforced. On the other hand, as Angie points out, maybe I am being to harsh? Afterall, it was only 100 days and that really isn't enough time to judge reforms.
DQ#8: I think China's biggest challenge with the west is the press, much like today (as Joy also mentions). Orchid and the Chinese in general, seemed to really be eviscerated by the foreign press and thus was dealt with very unfairly by other countries. I think this still happens today. One country/ruler is picked out as evil (maybe aptly so) and then all the media jumps on that bandwagon and tries to outdo others in stories about that country/ruler. It makes you rethink how much of the news to believe and what to take with a grain of salt, doesn't it?
DQ#s 11 & 12: I usually really enjoy historical fiction because I like imagining what it was like in the personal life of historical figures. Part of the reason I was disappointed in this book is because I couldn't feel connected to Orchid. Some parts were very personal and I would start to feel a connection and then it would become historical and inpersonal and the connection would be broken. However, I had never heard of the Dragon Empress before and found learning about her to be very interesting.
To finish, since the website wouldn't let me post a super-long comment:
Angie already pulled out some of my favorite quotes, including the leaves and acorns in the courtyard and the "fucking demon" comments and Joy picked out several of the topics (privies and eating children). However, as usual, there are a few other quotes and exerpts I want to highlight:
Ch. 30: I have to commiserate with the poor public servants asked to write an eight-legged essay, as I struggle with my eight-legged dissertation.
Ch. 38 and other chapters: I find it fascinating that even though Orchid was the Empress, she still needed the courts approval to meet with people and couldn't meet with males from other countries. Even the all-female party took some time to win approval. As both Joy and Angie mention, what is the point of being Empress if you can't speak your mind and see who you want to see? Bummer.
I actually had several other pages marked but now don't know why I marked them, so I'll conclude this eight-legged essay on "The Last Empress".
Oh, and thanks for the wikipedia links, Tracy. I enjoyed looking at some pictures of her, since my book did not have any photos.
There is an article (with photo) on the Empress in this month's Smithsonian magazine.
You can view it here:
Smithsonian Magazine
Even BETTER pictures of Empress Cixi at NPR.org and a nice retelling of her story too if you listen to the interview.
Wow, check out those shoes!
Wow, check out those shoes!
Great pictures. I had to look at the close-up of the shoes and her nails!
Me too! The close ups were great. I remember her having to cut her nails in the book, so seeing them (with protectors) somewhat satisfied my curiosity. I just wonder how she performed some of her daily bathroom "functions" with them.. Or do you think she had servants for that?
I'm thinking definitely servants. Those poor eunochs!
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