My two choices are the intro story, "Story of Kin Shahryar and His Brother", and "The Tale of the Bull and the Ass", because it sounds like a political story. Isn't it being played out in D.C. right now? :-)
I purchased this version on Kindle for $0.89! The only thing I am really, really disliking is that there are no links to the footnotes, so, I have seen about 30 foot-notations, but haven't "found" them in my book yet. Otherwise, it's a decent version and sure beats holding a huge book up when I want to read in bed.
I've finished the intro and Bull & Ass and suggest the next two stories for mine (since the plot of the King and the storyteller is still developing): The Fisherman and the Jinni The Porter and the Three Ladies of Baghdad
I'm going to reserve my comments until I have read a little bit more. I will say, however, there's more violence than I expected!
I always hate when I don't like my picks. It makes me want to preview my choices, but that would defeat the purpose. I won't write much yet until others have chosen their stories, but I will say that I'm not caring for Arabian nights. Ugh.
M - I'm sorry but I have to agree with you, I'm not very fond of the Arabian Nights either. I'm waiting for everyone else's story picks to comment. I think we should all read the last story at some point, do you agree? (I'm against pre-screening the books too. Defeats the purpose of our little club, which I hope is "reading across borders")
J - OH NO, not the Kindle! Did you put it in a bag with rice? The Kenyons swear by that trick.
I feel like I am in the minority. I am actually having fun reading Arabian Nights. I believe it has to do with the imaginative attitude I take about it after reading the intro and preface. I picture the Arabs in their flowing robes sitting together in a circle listening to the story teller. I can see them gesturing strongly to Allah at times, and other times rolling on the floor in laughter. It reminds me of a good story teller at a campsite bonfire.. the stars overhead, the excitement in the young faces. When I read this book, I forget my cares and let myself sink into the land of genies and sheiks and magic carpets. Yep. I am having fun reading this book. It is difficult to critique the individual stories because to me that is like critiqueing one or two individual notes in a symphony.
Unlike B, I just can't get into these stories. I have to force myself to read the next section. I think the trouble is that I get so caught up in the racist and sexist elements that I lose any engagement that I have with the story itself. It is rather like listening to someone tell a sexist joke, maybe it is funny but I fail to see the humor when I am so insulted by the sentiment behind the humor.
I'm also finding it very repetitive. Beautiful woman/wife sleeps with black slave and gets killed by angry husband. Got it. It really makes me wonder about the husbands. In today's world, I would argue that there is no excuse for adultery when a miserable marriage can be ended. However, in that time period women had no recourse for a miserable marriage so I can understand adultery more. Obviously their husbands have no respect for them as people, so if they can find love and respect elsewhere? (Although the few comments we here from the slaves before their deaths makes me think that may not be the case either).
Okay, so on to my more specific comments. I have sticky notes all through the first few stories, but I have a feeling some of them are already encapsulated in my general comments above.
Story of King Shahryar and His Brother: So, right off we are regaled with the gifts King Shahryar sends his brother, "such as horses with saddles of gem-encrusted gold; Mamelukes, or white slaves; beautiful handmaids, high-breasatede virgins, and splendid stuffs and costly." I notice high-breasted virgins (the lucky low-breasted virgins got to stay home apparently) fall between horses and splendid stuffs.
I find it funny that the Queen (of Shahryar) not only has sex with a black slave, but has an orgy with all the king's concubines and their lover-slaves in the middle of a courtyard. Not very sneaky.
Also, we can really see the racism exhibited in the description of the Queen's lover, "a big slobeering blackamoor with rolling eyes which showed the whites, a truly hideous sight."
The descriptions of the sex reminds me of Fanny Hill, with the different euphorisms used. For example, "Then he bussed her and winding his legs round hers, as a button loop clasps a button, he threw her and enjoyed her." Scandalous! I don't know that I'll ever be able to button anything the same again. :-)
The Bull and the Ass: I did find this story rather amusing, until the part where the wife got whiny and obnoxious and the husband beat her. Who's more to blame in this couple? I think they are equally to blame and both should be beaten. And Burton for writing, "Then she kissed his hand and feet and he led her out of the room submissive, as a wife should be." Good grief.
That sums up my comments on the two stories I chose. I'll post later on Angie's chosen stories. Anyone else want to join in and pick a story? :-)
Okay, obviously I did not edit my last comment before publishing it. So I want to apologize for the the many mispellings (breasatede, slobeering, etc) and just wrong words (euphorism for euphemism).
Wow. The comments posted on this book are really strong stuff. I am beginning to feel like I am out of my league here. Maybe I should step back and let you college people battle it out. I wonder if critiquing a book can endanger the fun of reading. I am keeping in mind when this book was written.. back in the time when chauvenism was strong and women were to be seen and not heard. It points out why women fought so hard for equal rights. This is also a book written about the Arabian culture which is mostly Moslem - and we all know how they (mis)treat their women.
My two choices are "The First Kalandar's Tale" and "The Second Kalandar's Tale". Of course I personally intend to read "The Third Kalandar's Tale". I don't think I will be able "not to" read the third tale. I apologize if I have not done a good job of critiquing this book in this website. I must tell you that I have been sharing what I have read with my husband and we have had some good discussions over it.
B, I'm glad you chose those two stories as I had already started reading them. One problem I'm having with my version is that I am unclear about the delineations between stories. Some have distinct beginnings and endings while others are all twined up together. I wasn't sure if A included these under her choice of "The Porter" or if they were separate. I like treating them as separate (as I did with the Bull and Ass), so good choice B.
I've been thinking about your question as to whether critiquing a book endangers the pleasure of reading a lot the past few days and am conflicted about this. For the most part, I think critiquing books only adds to the pleasure because (at least for me) when I am thinking about the book critically then I really engage with it more. I wouldn't want to do it with every book I read, sometimes I just want a schluff book that I can sink into mindlessly and lose myself in. But, while fun, this seems more superficial to me. I don't think about the plot, writing style, etc. as much or engage with it the same way. What does everyone else think?
Also, if I wasn't reading this book critically, I probably wouldn't be reading it at all since I am having a harder time getting into it for pleasure. It certainly isn't a schluff book.
The second fascinating point you brought up is reading with the context in mind. This is something else I have thought about a lot in the past, in regard to classics especially. How much leniency should the author get for context? Can we ignore the racism and sexism because it was the norm for the time period or should Burton still be held responsible for perpetuating it without critique of his own? And isn't the sign of a really good book the fact that it is good no matter what time period? No easy answers. I think I err on the side of responsibility and B sounds like she errs on the side of leniency. Where do the rest of you fall?
If I threw my net in the same place twice and came up with no fish but some junk, I don't think I'd throw it in the third time. Would you?
I found this idea of a gift being able to choose how you would like to die. Of course, it would be a better gift if you could choose when as well as how. But at least you could choose to die quickly and painlessly, which seems better than waiting for a (possibly) long, drawn-out, painful death.
The Tale of the Ensorceled Prince: I have to say that I was rooting for the "wicked sorceress" in this story. If she would have just bespelled her husband and ditched the slave who was such a pain, maybe she could have had a pleasant life. Poor girl. Alas, chopped in half yet again.
I'm just about up to the First Kalandar's Tale. I know it is spelled differently, but in my head I keep picturing a colander in my head...
Ok M you’ve posted a lot of questions. Plus here are my thoughts so far.
I must say that I am enjoying the book (after the intro part). The stories remind me of Aesop’s Fables or Grimm’s Fairy Tales and I wonder how many of these stories are similar? And for some reason, I envision these as the “Fractured Fairy Tales” from the Rocky/Bullwinkle show. I swear I’ve seen/heard the Fisherman and the Jinni story somewhere in my childhood but couldn’t say where or how. Also, I fully expect all of these stories to have 3 of something, seems like all stories then did – like the 3 Pigs, the 3 Bears, etc. etc, as in you’re allowed 2 mistakes but by the third, you should have learned something.
I am greatly enjoying the word “ensourcell”. I plan to try to use that in my daily speech, especially with students, it could be great fun! They’ll NEVER know what I’m talking about.
The footnote explains that Karlendar is “calendar”, so I picture these guys with a daily planner in hand, makes for an interesting visual.
As for the sexism/racism question, I side with the author. I see it as a documentary of the times. I like to read to critique because I like to discuss books, if with no one else but myself and my internal dialogue. And I like to read for vocabulary. And this book is certainly a vocabulary builder. I now know reremouse is a bat, turpiloquium is obscene speech (of course we know nothing of this!), and blackamoor and ifrit and ergomancy.
And OH MY! The Porter and 3 Ladies of Baghdad! Basil of the Bridges, Husked Sesame and Khan of Abu Mansur!
Also, I don’t like the “poems” so much. They are mostly pleas to Allah and I wonder how bastardized they are from translation. I find I skim them a lot to get to the story.
I am sorry for my delay in posting. I have been ill with shingles. I bought Arabian nights on Kindle like Angie did. Then I decided that I don't like the format that it is in in the book. So, I have now ordered a copy of it through the library. What I have read on the Kindle has been racists and sexist. I don't have high hopes for the rest of the book. But, for my picks, I would like to read Alaeddin; Sinbad the Seaman and Sinbad the Landsman, and Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves. I think that these stories were probably why the book has remained popular and want to compare them to what I see on Disney and in other books.
T, I'm struggling with reading this on the Kindle too. I haven't had a problem with other books but these layers of stories within stories makes me want to flip back and forth between real pages, so I can remember what the heck is going on when I pick up the book. As it is I end up scrolling back through a few pages and re-reading.
Like J, I skip over a lot of the poems and prayers. (shame, shame).
M, I also marked the list of gifts, especially the "high breasted virgins." Today I guess they would fall into the "barely legal" category...
Some other quotes I've marked: "whatso woman willeth the same she fulfilleth however man nilleth"
"So I took me a concubine who brought me the boon of a male child fair as the full moon, with eyes of lovely shine and eyebrows which formed one line, and limbs of perfect design."
"they were talking, and dallying, and laughing, and kissing and playing the close buttock game."
"I have weighty advice to offer thee, and if I withhold it I were a son of adultery and no true born man"
Something I thought I should read more about were types of ablution, specifically Ghusl and Wuzu ablutions. You can read more here if you're interested: http://www.muslimconverts.com/prayer/how-to-perform-wudhu.htm
I'm not offended by the overt racism and sexism because it speaks to not only the culture of the times, but the culture of the times of the translation. I'm not offended, but at the same time I don't care for the messages, which is a big part of why I don't really care for the book.
In response to the most excellent conversation that B and M started, I willingly admit to using a double standard when reading. In my head it's "literature vs fiction" and there's no way to say which is better; I love them both!
Fiction I read and enjoy at face value. I don't expect it to stand the test of time and be passed down to future generations. Generally I don't care if it has any social commentary; I just want to be entertained. Here is where I lose myself in Sookie Stackhouse, Stephanie Plum, etc.
Literature, on the other hand, I expect to be timeless; socially valuable; to spark conversation or introspection; to stand up to a critical reader (one who reads critically, not a criticizer). For me, to enjoy these books I have to dissect them. Know a little about the author, the politics, the struggles of the day, and put all of that into context with the characters, their actions, even their names.
Would I enjoy my fiction as much if I subjected it to the same critiques? Definitely not.
For me the trouble comes when an author, another reader, the mass media etc.. tries to convert what I think should be "fiction" into "literature." Also when I pick up a book that has been held in such high regard for many years (Moby Dick springs to mind) and upon reading it, hate it. What I find good about this forum is that instead of saying "I didn't like the book" I have started asking myself, "specifically, what made this book unlikeable?" Conversely, I also look for the reasons why I enjoy certain books. Is snappy dialogue enough to carry a poor plot? Will a good plot outshine a clumsy writing style?
-.-.-.-.-
M, regarding historical context, I think I'm with B and err on the side of leniency. I think it's good that some things that were accepted in the past cause us anguish, guilt, anger, etc. now. Other things that used to be taboo are now fully accepted by society. Without this contrast, we would lose our sense of progress, and as they say, those who don't learn from history are bound to repeat it.
To address A's point about dialogue/writing versus plot, I find that snappy dialogue and good writing can compensate for a weak plot (as long as there is a plot) but no matter how strong the plot, poor writing kills the story for me. Also, weak main characters really hurt my enjoyment of a story. For me, I need to have some understanding of the main character in order to enjoy the story. This is one of the reasons why sometimes I have a hard time with short stories, because I don't get to know the character well enough to really get into the story.
But, back to A.N. I think my copy is influencing my opinion because I don't have any footnotes (which is why I have no comments on FN 7, Joy) and I am apparently missing a number of stories as well. I found Thief and His Monkey online and so far have all the others that have been selected.
Porter and Three Ladies: This story is very strange. Three beautiful (surprise) women living along together, who take in stray men, beat dogs, and recite pointless poetry while ripping their clothes and pulling their hair. Um, I think maybe they are a little crazy.
First Kalandar's Tale: No comments, other than that I found it a little dull.
Second Kalandar's Tale: I like the sentence, "And it were graven with needle graver on the eye corners, it were a warner to whoso would be warned."
I also liked the comment of the tailor when the prince told him he was a scholar, "Thy calling is of no account in our city, where not a soul understandeth science or even writing, or aught save money-making." Oh, the life of an academic...
That basically sums up what I liked from this story.
But then maybe I am biased, because I marked the part where the eyes of the prince and tortured woman spoke to the other in poetry as being a bit ludicrous and yet in one of the stories of Killing Color a woman tells her story through only her eyes and I thought it was magical. I think it may be because the character in Killing Color is also consternated about how the woman does it, whereas in this story it just happens and the reader is expected to go along with it.
And finally, if I were a man turned into an ape, who can still write and I as given the chance to write something on a tablet, I would write, "Hey, I'm a man turned into an ape by an evil genie. How's about turning me back?" But he chose to write poetry. Poetry, which apparently has nothing to do with the fact that he's been turned into an ape. Poetry in FOUR DIFFERENT LANGUAGES, that does not say one word about being turned into an ape.
Wow, I'm really being negative about this, aren't I? :-) I'm really glad some of us are enjoying it and hope my negativity does not impact that enjoyment. I think I'll pass on the Third Kalandar's Tale.
Okay, this comment will be short and positive. I just read Thief and his Monkey, and Three Apples and liked both. They were short, which was nice, with less repitition than some of the other stories. Even though there was violence in Three Apples, I liked that the wife was vindicated and the husband repented (though I still think he should have been punished). Moving on to Tracy's picks and the most well-known of the stories.
Debauched women prefer negroes on account of the size of their parts. I measured one man in Somali-land who, when quiescent, numbered nearly 6 inches. This is a characteristic of the negro race and of African animals, e.g. the horse, whereas the pure Arab, man and beast, is below the average of Europe, one of the best proofs by the by, that the Eqyptian is not an Asiatic, but a negro partially white-washed. Moreover, these imposing parts do not increase proportionally during erection; consequently the "deed of kind" takes a much longer time and adds greatly to the woman's enjoyment. In my time no honest Hindu Moslem would take his women-folk to Zanzibar on account of the huge attractions and enormous temptations there and thereby offered to them. Upon the subject of Imsak=retention of semen and "prolongation of pleasure", I shall find it necesary to say more.
Okay, well that at least explains why so many of the women in the tales are cheating with black slaves. I wonder if this is the source of the stereotypes about black men's sexual prowess and equipment in today's world?
As I'll be leaving for a two-week vacation in less than two days (Woo-hoo, Yee-ha, and Zippety do-da), and am NOT taking Arabian Nights with me (only "light reading" on vacation), I thought I would post my comments up to this point. I am liking the later stories better than the earlier so these comments should be less negative. I've even read a few short stories that weren't one of our Club selections!
Ebony Horse: I liked this story quite a bit and had fun imagining swooping through the skies on the back of a balloon horse.
I am wondering about how many of them look like the full moon? Interesting way to describe someone. I'm guessing it hasn't the same significance as "full moon" today...?
One of my favorite descriptions of people thus far is the description of the third sage. It doesn't start out to bad, but then it is downhill from there! "..he was an old man, a hundred years of age, with hair frosted, forehead drooping, eyebrows mangy, ears sliten, beard and mustachios stained and dyed, eyes red and goggled, cheeks bleached and hollow, flabby nose like a brinjall or eggplant, face like a cobbler's apron, teeth overlapping and lips like camel's kidneys, loose and pendulous- in brief, a terror, a horror, a monster, for he was of the folk of his time the unsightliest and of his age the frightfulest."
And can someone explain why the prince had gall bladder problems in this section? "Hereat the Prince's heart melted for her and his gall bladder was like to burst.." Is this a euphemism for other parts of his anatomy?
Sinbad the Seaman and Sinbad the Landsman: I have only read through the first voyage, but had this one line running through my head because it apparently caught the fancy of some part of my brain: "For I came not to this high estate save after travail sore and perils galore, and how much toil and trouble have I not suffered in days of yore!" I think I fixated on it because it is rhymey (spelling?).
Looking forward to reading with you some more when I return!
M, I marked the same spot, specifically "lips like a camel's kidneys" my gracious that is a picture!
There are a lot more gall bladder problems to come.. I looked up the symptoms and they are: pain in the upper right quadrant, fever, nausea, vomiting, etc.. I guess kind of like being in love, possibly a euphemism but seems like a really odd one.
I'm currently on the 6th voyage, not really enjoying them. How many times can you be shipwrecked and be the ONLY survivor? The "buried alive" voyage was especially gruesome. Kill all those ppl instead of working together to get out? Jeepers! And then between every story we have to read about paying 100 dinars to the porter, come back tomorrow, sleep, go back the next day, and when it as the five hundredth seventy sixth night we repeat the previous 2 sentences... OMG IT'S DRIVING ME BATTY!
Joy and I were also talking the other day about how the first night they spent together the stories were really long, and then later some nights it seems like she only talks for 2 minutes... we figure those nights must have been pretty "hot and heavy." wink wink!
Tracy, what volumes are Aladdin and Ali Baba in? I can't find them for some reason.
I've taken to reading the footnotes, and when I find an interesting one, I go back and read the story it was in. A bit backwards, but it's been an interesting approach.
I finished Sinbad's voyages and have started Aladdin. I do not plan on reading any other stories after this. Sorry M, but I am longing with exceeding longing to be done with this pick and move on.
My last comments did not get posted so I will try again.
I found the Sindbad voyages to be quite gruesome, not the kind of story you want to read before bed if you are prone to bad dreams.
These stories are supposed to be the fairy tales of a culture and time long ago. We were also brought up with some rather gruesome fairy tales, we just didn't think about how gruesome they were. Think about the rhyme about the cradle in the treetop - the cradle will rock and down will come baby, cradle and all - from a treetop - yeah really good for the baby. Oh and how about the two kids who wander in the woods and stumble on the witch who fattens up little children to eat them (Hansel and Gretel), or the big bad wolf who ate granny and puts on her clothes so he can fool red riding hood and eat her up too.
After reading the Sindbad stories I am curious to see if and how much violence there will be in the Aladdin story. Did Disney white wash it?
I started reading Alaeddin but before I comment on it I have a comment to make on the 5th voyage of Sindbad. This story was sort of like a parable to me. I have known people who needed help, but I hesitated to help them because I have known from what others told me about them that once you help them out they are constantly asking you to do things for them - they are permanently needy people. I am sure I am not the only one who knows people like that. I try to be helpful when I can, but I do not feel that I am really helping someone when I allow them to constantly lean on me and not learning how to take care of themself. When Sindbad helped that man by carrying him on his shoulders it was not his intention to be carrying that man around forever and it soured him on being a helpful person. It is a fine line between being truly helpful and spoiling someone by helping when we should be encouraging them to do things for themselves. Any parent will tell you that. So, as you see, the 5th voyage struck a chord for me.
Now about Alaeddin - so far I am pleasantly surprised by this story. The violence level is very low key compared to previous stories, and the story line is interesting. Like most movies, the Disney version did not do the book justice.
I just finished Sinbad's voyages and will post my particular comments later when I have the book to hand, but I wanted to comment on B's post about Disney white washing. For my Gender and Women's Studies class, I have them read three versions of Cinderella- the original by Grimm, a modern rewrite, and a politically correct rewrite. Inevitably there is a student who asks why Grimm made it so much more gruesome than Disney's original version. :-) I gently explain that Grimm's version is the original (at least the original written) and Disney, in fact, white washed Grimm. How many kids today do you think even know that Disney didn't come up with most of their stories?
I finished reading Alaeddin. My oh my... I really do need to watch Disney's movie version to see what if anything he left in besides Alaeddin, the princess, the genie and the lamp. It definitely is a bit more adult fare in the book.
I heard somewhere that in many African cultures the liver and/or the gall bladder are considered the seat of emotions such as love. Maybe that is where we get the expression "gut feeling".
Like A and B, I am not a big fan of the voyages of Sinbad. They were gruesome and repetitive, as has been already commented. I did have a few other points I wanted to mention:
Third Voyage- "...till the carnal man was once more seized with longing for travel and diversion and adventure, and yearned after traffic and lucre and emolument, for that the human heart is naturally prone to evil." I don't know about the traffic,lucre and emolument, but I find that both my mother and I get the urge to travel every spring when sometimes maybe we would be better off staying home. You'd think that Sinbad would have figured this out sooner after being shipwrecked SEVEN times. Do you think the 3rd voyage gave the idea for "Planet of the Apes"?
Fourth Voyage-gall bladder issues again. But then, if I faced the prospect of being left to die in a pit of corpses my gall bladder might bother me too. I found it particularly disturbing that he killed all the spouses that were sent down into the pit rather than encouraging them to escape with him.
All voyages- I found it interesting that he told his WHOLE story to all his rescuers and they all "marveled exceedingly". That had to get old. It did for me.
I agree with other's comments about Sinbad's voyages. You would think he would LEARN!
Aladdin was not what I expected at all. I thought there would be some semblance to the Disney version but really not all that much. And it took place in CHINA and AFRICA! Wow. I did enjoy this story though, got a bit gruesome at the end though, with the threat of cutting off Aladdin's head.
I am ready to move on - enough of jinnis and ifrits.....
I watched the Disney movie Aladdin tonight. It was very interesting comparing it to the story in the book. I actually enjoyed the movie more this time than when I saw it when it first came out. I paid more attention to the story in order to make comparisons. There were obvious liberties that were taken by Disney with the original, but there were parts that did in a way come from the book - Aladdin being the only one who could go into the treasure cave and get the lamp, and Jafar pushing him back into the cave.
The story "The Lady and Her Five Suitors" in the book Arabian Nights is really funny. The mental pictures it provides are hilarious. I highly recommend you read it.
B, I also read "Lady and her Five Suitors" and really enjoyed it. It was short, funny, and didn't involve chopping the woman in half! :-)
I'm about a quarter of the way through Aladdin and just can't get into it. I hope it gets better because so far I have found it rather dull. I'll probably finish Aladdin and read Ali Baba and then quit with Arabian nights. I've been reading "Striped PJs" too.
I finally, finally finished Aladdin on my lunch hour today. Just when I thought it was wrapping up, lo and behold, the Sorcerer's evil brother pops up! I liked how at the beginning when Aladdin and his mother are poor, they don't wish for money, they wish for food, and then sell the trays to get by. I guess this shows Aladdin's good character, that it took him so long to wish for anything really greedy, and then when he did he shared it with all the townsfolk.
While I do love a good Disney movie, I hate to compare originals to Disney versions. Each is good but Disney makes so many changes. Everyone always talks about how the princesses affect kids, but how about how the male characters? In fact, aside from Aladdin who was a title character, can you give the first names of any of these heroes? I can't even name one.. the princes are interchangeable!
On your recommendation I also read the Lady and Her 5 Suitors and loved it. Finally some woman power, and fighting corruption to boot! The only thing that didn't make sense was how they new each others' voices when they were peeing on each other, but not as they were listening to her trick them all into crazy clothes and into the chest?
35 comments:
My two choices are the intro story, "Story of Kin Shahryar and His Brother", and "The Tale of the Bull and the Ass", because it sounds like a political story. Isn't it being played out in D.C. right now? :-)
I purchased this version on Kindle for $0.89! The only thing I am really, really disliking is that there are no links to the footnotes, so, I have seen about 30 foot-notations, but haven't "found" them in my book yet. Otherwise, it's a decent version and sure beats holding a huge book up when I want to read in bed.
I've finished the intro and Bull & Ass and suggest the next two stories for mine (since the plot of the King and the storyteller is still developing):
The Fisherman and the Jinni
The Porter and the Three Ladies of Baghdad
I'm going to reserve my comments until I have read a little bit more. I will say, however, there's more violence than I expected!
I always hate when I don't like my picks. It makes me want to preview my choices, but that would defeat the purpose. I won't write much yet until others have chosen their stories, but I will say that I'm not caring for Arabian nights. Ugh.
UH OH! I spilled coffee this morning on my Kindle and it is not looking good........ It was a Kindle 1, I guess I'm ready for an upgrade anyway.
So, I may try reading Arabian Nights on my PC, we'll see how that goes, hard to curl up in a chair with it though.....
M - I'm sorry but I have to agree with you, I'm not very fond of the Arabian Nights either. I'm waiting for everyone else's story picks to comment. I think we should all read the last story at some point, do you agree?
(I'm against pre-screening the books too. Defeats the purpose of our little club, which I hope is "reading across borders")
J - OH NO, not the Kindle! Did you put it in a bag with rice? The Kenyons swear by that trick.
The Kindle dried out all day and IT LIVES! YEAH!
I feel like I am in the minority. I am actually having fun reading Arabian Nights. I believe it has to do with the imaginative attitude I take about it after reading the intro and preface. I picture the Arabs in their flowing robes sitting together in a circle listening to the story teller. I can see them gesturing strongly to Allah at times, and other times rolling on the floor in laughter. It reminds me of a good story teller at a campsite bonfire.. the stars overhead, the excitement in the young faces. When I read this book, I forget my cares and let myself sink into the land of genies and sheiks and magic carpets. Yep. I am having fun reading this book. It is difficult to critique the individual stories because to me that is like critiqueing one or two individual notes in a symphony.
Unlike B, I just can't get into these stories. I have to force myself to read the next section. I think the trouble is that I get so caught up in the racist and sexist elements that I lose any engagement that I have with the story itself. It is rather like listening to someone tell a sexist joke, maybe it is funny but I fail to see the humor when I am so insulted by the sentiment behind the humor.
I'm also finding it very repetitive. Beautiful woman/wife sleeps with black slave and gets killed by angry husband. Got it. It really makes me wonder about the husbands. In today's world, I would argue that there is no excuse for adultery when a miserable marriage can be ended. However, in that time period women had no recourse for a miserable marriage so I can understand adultery more. Obviously their husbands have no respect for them as people, so if they can find love and respect elsewhere? (Although the few comments we here from the slaves before their deaths makes me think that may not be the case either).
Okay, so on to my more specific comments. I have sticky notes all through the first few stories, but I have a feeling some of them are already encapsulated in my general comments above.
Story of King Shahryar and His Brother:
So, right off we are regaled with the gifts King Shahryar sends his brother, "such as horses with saddles of gem-encrusted gold; Mamelukes, or white slaves; beautiful handmaids, high-breasatede virgins, and splendid stuffs and costly." I notice high-breasted virgins (the lucky low-breasted virgins got to stay home apparently) fall between horses and splendid stuffs.
I find it funny that the Queen (of Shahryar) not only has sex with a black slave, but has an orgy with all the king's concubines and their lover-slaves in the middle of a courtyard. Not very sneaky.
Also, we can really see the racism exhibited in the description of the Queen's lover, "a big slobeering blackamoor with rolling eyes which showed the whites, a truly hideous sight."
The descriptions of the sex reminds me of Fanny Hill, with the different euphorisms used. For example, "Then he bussed her and winding his legs round hers, as a button loop clasps a button, he threw her and enjoyed her." Scandalous! I don't know that I'll ever be able to button anything the same again. :-)
The Bull and the Ass:
I did find this story rather amusing, until the part where the wife got whiny and obnoxious and the husband beat her. Who's more to blame in this couple? I think they are equally to blame and both should be beaten. And Burton for writing, "Then she kissed his hand and feet and he led her out of the room submissive, as a wife should be." Good grief.
That sums up my comments on the two stories I chose. I'll post later on Angie's chosen stories. Anyone else want to join in and pick a story? :-)
Okay, obviously I did not edit my last comment before publishing it. So I want to apologize for the the many mispellings (breasatede, slobeering, etc) and just wrong words (euphorism for euphemism).
Wow. The comments posted on this book are really strong stuff. I am beginning to feel like I am out of my league here. Maybe I should step back and let you college people battle it out. I wonder if critiquing a book can endanger the fun of reading. I am keeping in mind when this book was written.. back in the time when chauvenism was strong and women were to be seen and not heard. It points out why women fought so hard for equal rights. This is also a book written about the Arabian culture which is mostly Moslem - and we all know how they (mis)treat their women.
My two choices are "The First Kalandar's Tale" and "The Second Kalandar's Tale". Of course I personally intend to read "The Third Kalandar's Tale". I don't think I will be able "not to" read the third tale. I apologize if I have not done a good job of critiquing this book in this website. I must tell you that I have been sharing what I have read with my husband and we have had some good discussions over it.
B, I'm glad you chose those two stories as I had already started reading them. One problem I'm having with my version is that I am unclear about the delineations between stories. Some have distinct beginnings and endings while others are all twined up together. I wasn't sure if A included these under her choice of "The Porter" or if they were separate. I like treating them as separate (as I did with the Bull and Ass), so good choice B.
I've been thinking about your question as to whether critiquing a book endangers the pleasure of reading a lot the past few days and am conflicted about this. For the most part, I think critiquing books only adds to the pleasure because (at least for me) when I am thinking about the book critically then I really engage with it more. I wouldn't want to do it with every book I read, sometimes I just want a schluff book that I can sink into mindlessly and lose myself in. But, while fun, this seems more superficial to me. I don't think about the plot, writing style, etc. as much or engage with it the same way. What does everyone else think?
Also, if I wasn't reading this book critically, I probably wouldn't be reading it at all since I am having a harder time getting into it for pleasure. It certainly isn't a schluff book.
The second fascinating point you brought up is reading with the context in mind. This is something else I have thought about a lot in the past, in regard to classics especially. How much leniency should the author get for context? Can we ignore the racism and sexism because it was the norm for the time period or should Burton still be held responsible for perpetuating it without critique of his own? And isn't the sign of a really good book the fact that it is good no matter what time period? No easy answers. I think I err on the side of responsibility and B sounds like she errs on the side of leniency. Where do the rest of you fall?
So more comments on the book itself...
The Fisherman and the Jinni:
If I threw my net in the same place twice and came up with no fish but some junk, I don't think I'd throw it in the third time. Would you?
I found this idea of a gift being able to choose how you would like to die. Of course, it would be a better gift if you could choose when as well as how. But at least you could choose to die quickly and painlessly, which seems better than waiting for a (possibly) long, drawn-out, painful death.
The Tale of the Ensorceled Prince:
I have to say that I was rooting for the "wicked sorceress" in this story. If she would have just bespelled her husband and ditched the slave who was such a pain, maybe she could have had a pleasant life. Poor girl. Alas, chopped in half yet again.
I'm just about up to the First Kalandar's Tale. I know it is spelled differently, but in my head I keep picturing a colander in my head...
Not ready to comment yet - still reading. But I do have my picks, they are: The Tale of 3 Apples, and The Thief and His Monkey.
I'm rather enjoying the footnotes. Anyone have any discussion on FN #7?
Ok M you’ve posted a lot of questions. Plus here are my thoughts so far.
I must say that I am enjoying the book (after the intro part). The stories remind me of Aesop’s Fables or Grimm’s Fairy Tales and I wonder how many of these stories are similar? And for some reason, I envision these as the “Fractured Fairy Tales” from the Rocky/Bullwinkle show. I swear I’ve seen/heard the Fisherman and the Jinni story somewhere in my childhood but couldn’t say where or how. Also, I fully expect all of these stories to have 3 of something, seems like all stories then did – like the 3 Pigs, the 3 Bears, etc. etc, as in you’re allowed 2 mistakes but by the third, you should have learned something.
I am greatly enjoying the word “ensourcell”. I plan to try to use that in my daily speech, especially with students, it could be great fun! They’ll NEVER know what I’m talking about.
The footnote explains that Karlendar is “calendar”, so I picture these guys with a daily planner in hand, makes for an interesting visual.
As for the sexism/racism question, I side with the author. I see it as a documentary of the times.
I like to read to critique because I like to discuss books, if with no one else but myself and my internal dialogue. And I like to read for vocabulary. And this book is certainly a vocabulary builder. I now know reremouse is a bat, turpiloquium is obscene speech (of course we know nothing of this!), and blackamoor and ifrit and ergomancy.
And OH MY! The Porter and 3 Ladies of Baghdad! Basil of the Bridges, Husked Sesame and Khan of Abu Mansur!
Also, I don’t like the “poems” so much. They are mostly pleas to Allah and I wonder how bastardized they are from translation. I find I skim them a lot to get to the story.
I am sorry for my delay in posting. I have been ill with shingles.
I bought Arabian nights on Kindle like Angie did. Then I decided that I don't like the format that it is in in the book. So, I have now ordered a copy of it through the library.
What I have read on the Kindle has been racists and sexist. I don't have high hopes for the rest of the book. But, for my picks, I would like to read Alaeddin; Sinbad the Seaman and Sinbad the Landsman, and Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves. I think that these stories were probably why the book has remained popular and want to compare them to what I see on Disney and in other books.
T, I'm struggling with reading this on the Kindle too. I haven't had a problem with other books but these layers of stories within stories makes me want to flip back and forth between real pages, so I can remember what the heck is going on when I pick up the book. As it is I end up scrolling back through a few pages and re-reading.
Like J, I skip over a lot of the poems and prayers. (shame, shame).
M, I also marked the list of gifts, especially the "high breasted virgins." Today I guess they would fall into the "barely legal" category...
Some other quotes I've marked:
"whatso woman willeth the same she fulfilleth however man nilleth"
"So I took me a concubine who brought me the boon of a male child fair as the full moon, with eyes of lovely shine and eyebrows which formed one line, and limbs of perfect design."
"they were talking, and dallying, and laughing, and kissing and playing the close buttock game."
"I have weighty advice to offer thee, and if I withhold it I were a son of adultery and no true born man"
Something I thought I should read more about were types of ablution, specifically Ghusl and Wuzu ablutions. You can read more here if you're interested:
http://www.muslimconverts.com/prayer/how-to-perform-wudhu.htm
I'm not offended by the overt racism and sexism because it speaks to not only the culture of the times, but the culture of the times of the translation. I'm not offended, but at the same time I don't care for the messages, which is a big part of why I don't really care for the book.
In response to the most excellent conversation that B and M started, I willingly admit to using a double standard when reading. In my head it's "literature vs fiction" and there's no way to say which is better; I love them both!
Fiction I read and enjoy at face value. I don't expect it to stand the test of time and be passed down to future generations. Generally I don't care if it has any social commentary; I just want to be entertained. Here is where I lose myself in Sookie Stackhouse, Stephanie Plum, etc.
Literature, on the other hand, I expect to be timeless; socially valuable; to spark conversation or introspection; to stand up to a critical reader (one who reads critically, not a criticizer). For me, to enjoy these books I have to dissect them. Know a little about the author, the politics, the struggles of the day, and put all of that into context with the characters, their actions, even their names.
Would I enjoy my fiction as much if I subjected it to the same critiques? Definitely not.
For me the trouble comes when an author, another reader, the mass media etc.. tries to convert what I think should be "fiction" into "literature." Also when I pick up a book that has been held in such high regard for many years (Moby Dick springs to mind) and upon reading it, hate it. What I find good about this forum is that instead of saying "I didn't like the book" I have started asking myself, "specifically, what made this book unlikeable?" Conversely, I also look for the reasons why I enjoy certain books. Is snappy dialogue enough to carry a poor plot? Will a good plot outshine a clumsy writing style?
-.-.-.-.-
M, regarding historical context, I think I'm with B and err on the side of leniency. I think it's good that some things that were accepted in the past cause us anguish, guilt, anger, etc. now. Other things that used to be taboo are now fully accepted by society. Without this contrast, we would lose our sense of progress, and as they say, those who don't learn from history are bound to repeat it.
To address A's point about dialogue/writing versus plot, I find that snappy dialogue and good writing can compensate for a weak plot (as long as there is a plot) but no matter how strong the plot, poor writing kills the story for me. Also, weak main characters really hurt my enjoyment of a story. For me, I need to have some understanding of the main character in order to enjoy the story. This is one of the reasons why sometimes I have a hard time with short stories, because I don't get to know the character well enough to really get into the story.
But, back to A.N. I think my copy is influencing my opinion because I don't have any footnotes (which is why I have no comments on FN 7, Joy) and I am apparently missing a number of stories as well. I found Thief and His Monkey online and so far have all the others that have been selected.
Porter and Three Ladies:
This story is very strange. Three beautiful (surprise) women living along together, who take in stray men, beat dogs, and recite pointless poetry while ripping their clothes and pulling their hair. Um, I think maybe they are a little crazy.
First Kalandar's Tale:
No comments, other than that I found it a little dull.
Second Kalandar's Tale:
I like the sentence, "And it were graven with needle graver on the eye corners, it were a warner to whoso would be warned."
I also liked the comment of the tailor when the prince told him he was a scholar, "Thy calling is of no account in our city, where not a soul understandeth science or even writing, or aught save money-making." Oh, the life of an academic...
That basically sums up what I liked from this story.
But then maybe I am biased, because I marked the part where the eyes of the prince and tortured woman spoke to the other in poetry as being a bit ludicrous and yet in one of the stories of Killing Color a woman tells her story through only her eyes and I thought it was magical. I think it may be because the character in Killing Color is also consternated about how the woman does it, whereas in this story it just happens and the reader is expected to go along with it.
And finally, if I were a man turned into an ape, who can still write and I as given the chance to write something on a tablet, I would write, "Hey, I'm a man turned into an ape by an evil genie. How's about turning me back?" But he chose to write poetry. Poetry, which apparently has nothing to do with the fact that he's been turned into an ape. Poetry in FOUR DIFFERENT LANGUAGES, that does not say one word about being turned into an ape.
Wow, I'm really being negative about this, aren't I? :-) I'm really glad some of us are enjoying it and hope my negativity does not impact that enjoyment. I think I'll pass on the Third Kalandar's Tale.
Okay, this comment will be short and positive. I just read Thief and his Monkey, and Three Apples and liked both. They were short, which was nice, with less repitition than some of the other stories. Even though there was violence in Three Apples, I liked that the wife was vindicated and the husband repented (though I still think he should have been punished). Moving on to Tracy's picks and the most well-known of the stories.
M for you , here is Footnote # 7.
Debauched women prefer negroes on account of the size of their parts. I measured one man in Somali-land who, when quiescent, numbered nearly 6 inches. This is a characteristic of the negro race and of African animals, e.g. the horse, whereas the pure Arab, man and beast, is below the average of Europe, one of the best proofs by the by, that the Eqyptian is not an Asiatic, but a negro partially white-washed. Moreover, these imposing parts do not increase proportionally during erection; consequently the "deed of kind" takes a much longer time and adds greatly to the woman's enjoyment. In my time no honest Hindu Moslem would take his women-folk to Zanzibar on account of the huge attractions and enormous temptations there and thereby offered to them. Upon the subject of Imsak=retention of semen and "prolongation of pleasure", I shall find it necesary to say more.
Are the footnotes necessary? I think not.
Okay, well that at least explains why so many of the women in the tales are cheating with black slaves. I wonder if this is the source of the stereotypes about black men's sexual prowess and equipment in today's world?
Now I wish I had the footnotes...
Since E has been having internet difficulties, I'll let everyone know that her chosen story is "The Ebony Horse".
As I'll be leaving for a two-week vacation in less than two days (Woo-hoo, Yee-ha, and Zippety do-da), and am NOT taking Arabian Nights with me (only "light reading" on vacation), I thought I would post my comments up to this point. I am liking the later stories better than the earlier so these comments should be less negative. I've even read a few short stories that weren't one of our Club selections!
Ebony Horse:
I liked this story quite a bit and had fun imagining swooping through the skies on the back of a balloon horse.
I am wondering about how many of them look like the full moon? Interesting way to describe someone. I'm guessing it hasn't the same significance as "full moon" today...?
One of my favorite descriptions of people thus far is the description of the third sage. It doesn't start out to bad, but then it is downhill from there! "..he was an old man, a hundred years of age, with hair frosted, forehead drooping, eyebrows mangy, ears sliten, beard and mustachios stained and dyed, eyes red and goggled, cheeks bleached and hollow, flabby nose like a brinjall or eggplant, face like a cobbler's apron, teeth overlapping and lips like camel's kidneys, loose and pendulous- in brief, a terror, a horror, a monster, for he was of the folk of his time the unsightliest and of his age the frightfulest."
And can someone explain why the prince had gall bladder problems in this section? "Hereat the Prince's heart melted for her and his gall bladder was like to burst.." Is this a euphemism for other parts of his anatomy?
Sinbad the Seaman and Sinbad the Landsman:
I have only read through the first voyage, but had this one line running through my head because it apparently caught the fancy of some part of my brain: "For I came not to this high estate save after travail sore and perils galore, and how much toil and trouble have I not suffered in days of yore!" I think I fixated on it because it is rhymey (spelling?).
Looking forward to reading with you some more when I return!
M, I marked the same spot, specifically "lips like a camel's kidneys" my gracious that is a picture!
There are a lot more gall bladder problems to come.. I looked up the symptoms and they are: pain in the upper right quadrant, fever, nausea, vomiting, etc.. I guess kind of like being in love, possibly a euphemism but seems like a really odd one.
I'm currently on the 6th voyage, not really enjoying them. How many times can you be shipwrecked and be the ONLY survivor? The "buried alive" voyage was especially gruesome. Kill all those ppl instead of working together to get out? Jeepers! And then between every story we have to read about paying 100 dinars to the porter, come back tomorrow, sleep, go back the next day, and when it as the five hundredth seventy sixth night we repeat the previous 2 sentences... OMG IT'S DRIVING ME BATTY!
Joy and I were also talking the other day about how the first night they spent together the stories were really long, and then later some nights it seems like she only talks for 2 minutes... we figure those nights must have been pretty "hot and heavy." wink wink!
Tracy, what volumes are Aladdin and Ali Baba in? I can't find them for some reason.
I've taken to reading the footnotes, and when I find an interesting one, I go back and read the story it was in. A bit backwards, but it's been an interesting approach.
I finished Sinbad's voyages and have started Aladdin. I do not plan on reading any other stories after this. Sorry M, but I am longing with exceeding longing to be done with this pick and move on.
My last comments did not get posted so I will try again.
I found the Sindbad voyages to be quite gruesome, not the kind of story you want to read before bed if you are prone to bad dreams.
These stories are supposed to be the fairy tales of a culture and time long ago. We were also brought up with some rather gruesome fairy tales, we just didn't think about how gruesome they were. Think about the rhyme about the cradle in the treetop - the cradle will rock and down will come baby, cradle and all - from a treetop - yeah really good for the baby. Oh and how about the two kids who wander in the woods and stumble on the witch who fattens up little children to eat them (Hansel and Gretel), or the big bad wolf who ate granny and puts on her clothes so he can fool red riding hood and eat her up too.
After reading the Sindbad stories I am curious to see if and how much violence there will be in the Aladdin story. Did Disney white wash it?
I started reading Alaeddin but before I comment on it I have a comment to make on the 5th voyage of Sindbad. This story was sort of like a parable to me. I have known people who needed help, but I hesitated to help them because I have known from what others told me about them that once you help them out they are constantly asking you to do things for them - they are permanently needy people. I am sure I am not the only one who knows people like that. I try to be helpful when I can, but I do not feel that I am really helping someone when I allow them to constantly lean on me and not learning how to take care of themself. When Sindbad helped that man by carrying him on his shoulders it was not his intention to be carrying that man around forever and it soured him on being a helpful person. It is a fine line between being truly helpful and spoiling someone by helping when we should be encouraging them to do things for themselves. Any parent will tell you that. So, as you see, the 5th voyage struck a chord for me.
Now about Alaeddin - so far I am pleasantly surprised by this story. The violence level is very low key compared to previous stories, and the story line is interesting. Like most movies, the Disney version did not do the book justice.
I just finished Sinbad's voyages and will post my particular comments later when I have the book to hand, but I wanted to comment on B's post about Disney white washing. For my Gender and Women's Studies class, I have them read three versions of Cinderella- the original by Grimm, a modern rewrite, and a politically correct rewrite. Inevitably there is a student who asks why Grimm made it so much more gruesome than Disney's original version. :-) I gently explain that Grimm's version is the original (at least the original written) and Disney, in fact, white washed Grimm. How many kids today do you think even know that Disney didn't come up with most of their stories?
I finished reading Alaeddin. My oh my... I really do need to watch Disney's movie version to see what if anything he left in besides Alaeddin, the princess, the genie and the lamp. It definitely is a bit more adult fare in the book.
I heard somewhere that in many African cultures the liver and/or the gall bladder are considered the seat of emotions such as love. Maybe that is where we get the expression "gut feeling".
Like A and B, I am not a big fan of the voyages of Sinbad. They were gruesome and repetitive, as has been already commented. I did have a few other points I wanted to mention:
Third Voyage- "...till the carnal man was once more seized with longing for travel and diversion and adventure, and yearned after traffic and lucre and emolument, for that the human heart is naturally prone to evil." I don't know about the traffic,lucre and emolument, but I find that both my mother and I get the urge to travel every spring when sometimes maybe we would be better off staying home. You'd think that Sinbad would have figured this out sooner after being shipwrecked SEVEN times.
Do you think the 3rd voyage gave the idea for "Planet of the Apes"?
Fourth Voyage-gall bladder issues again. But then, if I faced the prospect of being left to die in a pit of corpses my gall bladder might bother me too.
I found it particularly disturbing that he killed all the spouses that were sent down into the pit rather than encouraging them to escape with him.
All voyages- I found it interesting that he told his WHOLE story to all his rescuers and they all "marveled exceedingly". That had to get old. It did for me.
I agree with other's comments about Sinbad's voyages. You would think he would LEARN!
Aladdin was not what I expected at all. I thought there would be some semblance to the Disney version but really not all that much. And it took place in CHINA and AFRICA! Wow. I did enjoy this story though, got a bit gruesome at the end though, with the threat of cutting off Aladdin's head.
I am ready to move on - enough of jinnis and ifrits.....
I watched the Disney movie Aladdin tonight. It was very interesting comparing it to the story in the book. I actually enjoyed the movie more this time than when I saw it when it first came out. I paid more attention to the story in order to make comparisons. There were obvious liberties that were taken by Disney with the original, but there were parts that did in a way come from the book - Aladdin being the only one who could go into the treasure cave and get the lamp, and Jafar pushing him back into the cave.
The story "The Lady and Her Five Suitors" in the book Arabian Nights is really funny. The mental pictures it provides are hilarious. I highly recommend you read it.
B, I also read "Lady and her Five Suitors" and really enjoyed it. It was short, funny, and didn't involve chopping the woman in half! :-)
I'm about a quarter of the way through Aladdin and just can't get into it. I hope it gets better because so far I have found it rather dull. I'll probably finish Aladdin and read Ali Baba and then quit with Arabian nights. I've been reading "Striped PJs" too.
I finally, finally finished Aladdin on my lunch hour today. Just when I thought it was wrapping up, lo and behold, the Sorcerer's evil brother pops up!
I liked how at the beginning when Aladdin and his mother are poor, they don't wish for money, they wish for food, and then sell the trays to get by. I guess this shows Aladdin's good character, that it took him so long to wish for anything really greedy, and then when he did he shared it with all the townsfolk.
While I do love a good Disney movie, I hate to compare originals to Disney versions. Each is good but Disney makes so many changes. Everyone always talks about how the princesses affect kids, but how about how the male characters? In fact, aside from Aladdin who was a title character, can you give the first names of any of these heroes? I can't even name one.. the princes are interchangeable!
http://images.wikia.com/disney/images/f/ff/Disney-Princes-Wallpaper-disney-6015184-1024-768.jpg
On your recommendation I also read the Lady and Her 5 Suitors and loved it. Finally some woman power, and fighting corruption to boot! The only thing that didn't make sense was how they new each others' voices when they were peeing on each other, but not as they were listening to her trick them all into crazy clothes and into the chest?
Post a Comment