I was right, I had read Daisy Miller before, but I still can't place when/why I read it. It took me until about section IV before I recalled the ending. For a while I think I was confusing it with Roman Fever by Edith Wharton (indeed, what an interesting comparison, n'est-ce pas?).
Winterborne (sp) reminds me a bit of Stevens from Remains of the Day.. constantly pondering the larger meaning of the tiniest actions, too caught up in the proper act to grasp the full enjoyment of life.
I have mixed feelings on Daisy (I love the name Daisy, it just sounds so happy and whimsical). On the one hand she's rather snobbish, but at the same time carefree and happy. Obviously she's had a less than perfect life (in my opinion, lenient parents often lead to unhappy childhoods) what with her mother's near non-intrest in her life and her wild and crazy brother. I find it odd that someone who was so aware of society and exclusiveness would find it so hard to understand (or so easy to dismiss) the concerns raised about her promiscuity, even as interpreted though a cultural bias. Though, I guess Schenectady was never really a hotbed of high debutante culture..
Overall I found myself annoyed at the mother and brother, frustrated with Winterborne and generally rooting for Daisy right up to the end. The good die young, eh?
I will say that Daisy was a masterful conversationalist, a trait that I quite envy. I have no problem sitting in silence in any situation. Many times though, making converstaion seems to be the polite thing to do (and even required in some aspects of my job now, such as mingling with customers at holiday parties) and I can never think of anything to say! I actually find myself making lists in advance of topics that I can bring up..
Also I'd just like to mention that I've always found it a little difficult to judge the social interactions in period pieces. I guess it's because I never feel like I have enough background on the actual social sentiments of the day to discern which way the author may be swaying his characters. Obviously one must make certain assumptions based on the literary clues, but how do you know they're completely accurate? =) aaaahhhhh. Reading is so lovely!
Overall, I was a little bit disappointed with this story. From what I have read about it, both in other books and in the introduction to this book, I expected something more... intense? Instead, it seems to be only a short story about a boy-crazy girl, an inept mother, society snobs, and an seemingly emotionally stunted man with a need for control. Is there any part of this summary you disagree with?
I agree with your analysis of Winterbourne but would add that he also appears to be out of touch with his own emotions (not realizing how much he cared about Daisy until after she was dead). He spent way too much time listening to the voices in his head and too little listening to his own hear, I think.
I also have mixed feelings on Daisy. At first glance she seems a bit like a silly, boy-crazy girl gone wild. However, some of her statements seem to show that she is actually quite intelligent underneath the facade. Is she pretending stupidity to gain attention? I do like her spunk, even when it is misplaced! For example, at one point (p 49) she tells Winterbourn, "I've never allowed a gentleman to dictate to me or to interfere with anything I do!" I must say that part of me said, "you go, girl".
While Daisy easily conversed with strangers, I'm not sure I would categorize her conversation is good... It seemed quite trivial and uninteresting at points as well as giving away more information than strangers really need to know. However, I understand your difficulty with make conversation in social settings. I don't care for social situations myself!
I liked the story "Pandora" much better than "Daisy Miller". Pandora seems much more intelligent and capable than Daisy Miller and the Count seems more understanding than Winterbourne and is honestly seeking to understand American women as a whole, not just one woman. While there are similarities between Winterbourne and the Count (relying on others for information about the girls, focused on analyzing and catergorizing more so than understanding, etc), I find the Count much more likeable as a whole.
However, the dialogue in this story was less interesting and there was less of it and I do like good dialogue. The fact that this had a happy ending, for Pandora at least, also makes me much happier. A tragic ending can be good but is still never quite as satisfying for me as a happy ending.
The Patagonia and Four Meetings both rated an "eh" in my opinion. The Patagonia seemed VERY similar to Daisy Miller. American girl is looked down upon for spending too much time in the company of a young man. She dies. It seems to be a comment on the power of gossip and societal expectations. Does the death of the girl show that James things women must die to escape it?
In Four Meetings, at the very beginning, we find out that the female character is dead already. In the rest of the story we find out how gullible she is and what a miserable life she's led.
All the narrators are male, very socially-conscious, and not very sympathetic. While they feel somewhat sorry for the plight of the female characters, they do very little to help them. Jerks.
Anyway, Henry James will be moving from my bookshelves to the bookshelves of another reader very shortly. These stories have not merited space on my "exclusive" shelves.
I liked Pandora much more than Daisy Miller, mostly for the reasons you mentioned about the Count. I also liked the idea of the self-made-girl - I suppose it must have been an interesting thing for high society to begin accepting the self-made people.. Is it just me or does Pandora remind you of that fun lady from Titanic who was "new money?"
I will say that these stories, though not my favorites, have started me thinking about how I classify people in my mind. (I found it rather odd that the Count would point blank ask what someone's status was, which got me thinking, what characteristics do I use to determine social status). I think my primaries are: Car, job description, education level, pronunciation/grammar, gender and flamboyance. Also, I'll take a tip from Holmes and add fingernail hygiene.
Do you consider taste to be an indicator for social status? For example, NASCAR versus golf or rap versus opera? I agree with your listed indicators with the exception of gender and flamboyance. I'm not sure how they are indicators of status... And also, what about behavior with the opposite sex (or is that what you meant?)
I take gender into account when assessing someone's actions. I will openly admit that I expect and accept different behaviors from men than from women.
By Falmboyance I mean... level of flashiness... it's hard to describe. For instance, over Christmas I met a customer of ours who insisted on mentioning how much money earned/spent in nearly every story he told. He laughed and talked very loudly, and was unable to recall to whom he had told which story (over the course of a day) so that we ended up hearing the same annoying, UNsutble stories 2 or 3 times. That to me is a high degree of flamboyance, and moves him down a couple of notches on my "class" scale.
As far as taste, I'm not sure... I don't think it plays into my classification very much. I'll have to think about it.
That being said, I finished Henry James last night. I don't know why I thought Four Meetings was called Quarters, unless I saw 4 of something and thought 1/4..
I did not enjoy the Patagonia at all, until Miss Mavis killed herself. "Thank god," I thought, "It's about time!" The premise, as you mentioned, was the same as the first 2 stories: An upstanding young woman can not have male friends without a romantic alterior motive. To this I give a hearty Pshaw! and thank heaven that we've moved beyond that social mind-set.
On the other hand, I really enjoyed Four Meetings, even with its twisted plot and mousish heroine. Maybe I liked it because of its twisted plot. I got a wonderful kick out of Caroline always making the coffee incorrectly. There is a land called Passive-Aggressiva and she is the Queen! Very disappointing, however, that James gives us no account of her death, only that she is dead. Do you think she killed herself?
More importanly, do we let Aaron pick a book now or do we move on without him?
Also, Harold wanted me to add that he read 3 pages of Remains of the Day and packed it in. I'm sure he'll read with us again once I tell him we're into some really juicy book. =)
I understood that Aaron had a book picked out? or at least a short list of books? Let's email him and ask, but I have a suspicion we'll be moving on with our next choices first...
I think he might lean towards Fear Nothing by Dean Koontz (sp?) as he's already read the first 2 chapters.... at least, that's what I suggested he do, since he's already somewhat invested in it...
10 comments:
I was right, I had read Daisy Miller before, but I still can't place when/why I read it. It took me until about section IV before I recalled the ending. For a while I think I was confusing it with Roman Fever by Edith Wharton (indeed, what an interesting comparison, n'est-ce pas?).
Winterborne (sp) reminds me a bit of Stevens from Remains of the Day.. constantly pondering the larger meaning of the tiniest actions, too caught up in the proper act to grasp the full enjoyment of life.
I have mixed feelings on Daisy (I love the name Daisy, it just sounds so happy and whimsical). On the one hand she's rather snobbish, but at the same time carefree and happy. Obviously she's had a less than perfect life (in my opinion, lenient parents often lead to unhappy childhoods) what with her mother's near non-intrest in her life and her wild and crazy brother. I find it odd that someone who was so aware of society and exclusiveness would find it so hard to understand (or so easy to dismiss) the concerns raised about her promiscuity, even as interpreted though a cultural bias. Though, I guess Schenectady was never really a hotbed of high debutante culture..
Overall I found myself annoyed at the mother and brother, frustrated with Winterborne and generally rooting for Daisy right up to the end. The good die young, eh?
I will say that Daisy was a masterful conversationalist, a trait that I quite envy. I have no problem sitting in silence in any situation. Many times though, making converstaion seems to be the polite thing to do (and even required in some aspects of my job now, such as mingling with customers at holiday parties) and I can never think of anything to say! I actually find myself making lists in advance of topics that I can bring up..
Also I'd just like to mention that I've always found it a little difficult to judge the social interactions in period pieces. I guess it's because I never feel like I have enough background on the actual social sentiments of the day to discern which way the author may be swaying his characters. Obviously one must make certain assumptions based on the literary clues, but how do you know they're completely accurate? =) aaaahhhhh. Reading is so lovely!
On to the second story now, I guess.
Overall, I was a little bit disappointed with this story. From what I have read about it, both in other books and in the introduction to this book, I expected something more... intense? Instead, it seems to be only a short story about a boy-crazy girl, an inept mother, society snobs, and an seemingly emotionally stunted man with a need for control. Is there any part of this summary you disagree with?
I agree with your analysis of Winterbourne but would add that he also appears to be out of touch with his own emotions (not realizing how much he cared about Daisy until after she was dead). He spent way too much time listening to the voices in his head and too little listening to his own hear, I think.
I also have mixed feelings on Daisy. At first glance she seems a bit like a silly, boy-crazy girl gone wild. However, some of her statements seem to show that she is actually quite intelligent underneath the facade. Is she pretending stupidity to gain attention? I do like her spunk, even when it is misplaced! For example, at one point (p 49) she tells Winterbourn, "I've never allowed a gentleman to dictate to me or to interfere with anything I do!" I must say that part of me said, "you go, girl".
While Daisy easily conversed with strangers, I'm not sure I would categorize her conversation is good... It seemed quite trivial and uninteresting at points as well as giving away more information than strangers really need to know. However, I understand your difficulty with make conversation in social settings. I don't care for social situations myself!
On to the next..
I liked the story "Pandora" much better than "Daisy Miller". Pandora seems much more intelligent and capable than Daisy Miller and the Count seems more understanding than Winterbourne and is honestly seeking to understand American women as a whole, not just one woman. While there are similarities between Winterbourne and the Count (relying on others for information about the girls, focused on analyzing and catergorizing more so than understanding, etc), I find the Count much more likeable as a whole.
However, the dialogue in this story was less interesting and there was less of it and I do like good dialogue. The fact that this had a happy ending, for Pandora at least, also makes me much happier. A tragic ending can be good but is still never quite as satisfying for me as a happy ending.
And now for "The Patagonia"...
The Patagonia and Four Meetings both rated an "eh" in my opinion. The Patagonia seemed VERY similar to Daisy Miller. American girl is looked down upon for spending too much time in the company of a young man. She dies. It seems to be a comment on the power of gossip and societal expectations. Does the death of the girl show that James things women must die to escape it?
In Four Meetings, at the very beginning, we find out that the female character is dead already. In the rest of the story we find out how gullible she is and what a miserable life she's led.
All the narrators are male, very socially-conscious, and not very sympathetic. While they feel somewhat sorry for the plight of the female characters, they do very little to help them. Jerks.
Anyway, Henry James will be moving from my bookshelves to the bookshelves of another reader very shortly. These stories have not merited space on my "exclusive" shelves.
I liked Pandora much more than Daisy Miller, mostly for the reasons you mentioned about the Count.
I also liked the idea of the self-made-girl - I suppose it must have been an interesting thing for high society to begin accepting the self-made people.. Is it just me or does Pandora remind you of that fun lady from Titanic who was "new money?"
I will say that these stories, though not my favorites, have started me thinking about how I classify people in my mind. (I found it rather odd that the Count would point blank ask what someone's status was, which got me thinking, what characteristics do I use to determine social status). I think my primaries are: Car, job description, education level, pronunciation/grammar, gender and flamboyance. Also, I'll take a tip from Holmes and add fingernail hygiene.
On to the Patagonia tonight.
Do you consider taste to be an indicator for social status? For example, NASCAR versus golf or rap versus opera? I agree with your listed indicators with the exception of gender and flamboyance. I'm not sure how they are indicators of status... And also, what about behavior with the opposite sex (or is that what you meant?)
I take gender into account when assessing someone's actions. I will openly admit that I expect and accept different behaviors from men than from women.
By Falmboyance I mean... level of flashiness... it's hard to describe. For instance, over Christmas I met a customer of ours who insisted on mentioning how much money earned/spent in nearly every story he told. He laughed and talked very loudly, and was unable to recall to whom he had told which story (over the course of a day) so that we ended up hearing the same annoying, UNsutble stories 2 or 3 times. That to me is a high degree of flamboyance, and moves him down a couple of notches on my "class" scale.
As far as taste, I'm not sure... I don't think it plays into my classification very much. I'll have to think about it.
That being said, I finished Henry James last night. I don't know why I thought Four Meetings was called Quarters, unless I saw 4 of something and thought 1/4..
I did not enjoy the Patagonia at all, until Miss Mavis killed herself. "Thank god," I thought, "It's about time!" The premise, as you mentioned, was the same as the first 2 stories: An upstanding young woman can not have male friends without a romantic alterior motive. To this I give a hearty Pshaw! and thank heaven that we've moved beyond that social mind-set.
On the other hand, I really enjoyed Four Meetings, even with its twisted plot and mousish heroine. Maybe I liked it because of its twisted plot. I got a wonderful kick out of Caroline always making the coffee incorrectly. There is a land called Passive-Aggressiva and she is the Queen! Very disappointing, however, that James gives us no account of her death, only that she is dead.
Do you think she killed herself?
More importanly, do we let Aaron pick a book now or do we move on without him?
Also, Harold wanted me to add that he read 3 pages of Remains of the Day and packed it in. I'm sure he'll read with us again once I tell him we're into some really juicy book. =)
I understood that Aaron had a book picked out? or at least a short list of books? Let's email him and ask, but I have a suspicion we'll be moving on with our next choices first...
I think he might lean towards Fear Nothing by Dean Koontz (sp?) as he's already read the first 2 chapters.... at least, that's what I suggested he do, since he's already somewhat invested in it...
That works for me- I've read several of Dean Koontz and liked them. In fact, I have two on my shelves right now... too bad neither one are THAT one.
Post a Comment